Welcome to our final episode of this special summer series of the Campfire Circle podcast. We’re bringing back mini-moments from past episodes that are just as relevant today – if not more so.

This episode is from a longer conversation with Bernice Chao and Jessalin Lam where we dive into the unique visibility challenges that AAPI leaders face. They share practical tips and stories about how they reframed cultural messages and norms to better advocate for themselves and secure new opportunities at work.

To listen to the full episode, visit: LUMOS MARKETING

Identifying Cultural-Based Visibility Challenges in AAPI Leadership

Tania

I would love for you to tell me in your own words, what is the visibility mindset? What are the unique challenges that AAPI face in growing their visibility?

Bernice

I want to start with the title itself. One thing I grew up with, and I think a lot of people in this culture grew up with, is assimilation. My parents came to this country in the 70s. They renamed themselves and became Nelson and Ingrid, I became Bernice. I was born here, but these are very white classical names, they’re not even common names. It was so they could fit in because they knew what they looked like was going to make them stand out. Culturally, I was taught to keep my head down, blend in, and don’t rock the boat. If you do, you will get dinged. This is something we all share culturally, because our parents did this to make it in this country and make a future for us. 

Jessalin and I share stories about how we go into the workplace. Standing out is hard for us because we weren’t given the tools to know how, but we’re also culturally told not to. I always reference the very American idiom of, the squeaky wheel gets the grease. I was taught the loudest duck gets shot, the loudest bamboo gets cut, the tallest nail gets hammered down. When I go into a large board room of free-flowing ideas, like a Super Bowl campaign pitch, I write all the notes. I’m super attentive. Then I go back to my desk and have concrete thoughts I turn in later. Everyone else in the room is popping off with half-thought-out answers and the first thing in their brain. I am not comfortable with that because I don’t want to look like I’m not showing up at 100%. We were told to do that. 

Visibility mindset is understanding and saying, we know this isn’t just you. This is something you could have learned and you’re not alone. A lot of people are feeling this way. But how do you have the mindset that when you go in the room, you have to speak? Are there things you can talk about so it’s comfortable for you? Your idea doesn’t have to be perfect. When you say it out loud, you’re helping to build more puzzle pieces for everyone else to grow up from.

Jessalin

I’ve experienced a lot of toxic workplaces and being the only person of color in the workplace. When there were times of trying to speak up to get a promotion, I would be passed up for the offer. To be transparent, a white person was hired or promoted into a leadership position that I could have easily gotten. That’s the feeling of being invisible in the workplace. That’s the reason for leaving companies. That’s why we wanted to create something and ask, how can we create this visibility mindset and teach people how to support the Asian community? Especially with Asian culture, I feel like it’s challenging speaking up or asking for help. To network, you need to know how to ask for help. To get a mentor, you need to know what you’re looking for. We teach those tips in the book. It’s a lot of unlearning old ways or things that have been taught to us culturally, or even through corporate America from the experiences that we have. It’s being able to learn and reframe different ways to redefine the future of the workplace.

From Culture at Home to Culture in the Workplace: Developing a Visibility Mindset as an AAPI Leader

Tania

You are both definitely visible now in a variety of ways. You’re launching this book into the world, you have this incredible community. If you could talk to your previous self who is really struggling to be seen and heard and valued, what advice would you give her?

Jessalin

I’ve always been myself at work. I’ve gotten into trouble for it and not been promoted because of it, but I speak up for myself. A lot of people applaud me and say, wow, you’re so brave. I look at it as survival, because if I’m not going to speak up for myself, who else is going to do it? I don’t have someone to sponsor me throughout my career. I would say to my younger self who didn’t know what she was doing, you’re doing a great job. You’re going in the right direction. 

Early on in my career, I gathered a lot of mentors, and I asked for help. I tried to figure out what I wanted to do and pave the way not by myself, but by building a community and network and having those people to lean on when I needed to help. Early on in my career when I worked in toxic workplaces, I explained what I was dealing with to a mentor. She said, you’re like an abused puppy and you don’t realize it. I said, what are you talking about? I didn’t get it until now because now I work in a great workplace. I wouldn’t know what a good workplace is when it’s my first job out of college because I haven’t experienced a good workplace. So I would say to my younger self, look for a place that is going to celebrate, appreciate, and elevate you. Those are the places that are going to help you thrive and grow. My younger self would fit a lot of those environments that didn’t allow that.

Bernice

I’m definitely more on the introverted side. When I was struggling, I just held it in. In Chinese, we have a phrase called 吃苦 (chīkǔ), which means eating bitterness. I was taught to never let the crack show. Whatever’s happening with you, that stays home. I didn’t know to ask for help, and when I was really struggling, I felt terrible. I felt hopeless. I didn’t know what to do. I didn’t realize how important advocating for yourself is. 

I would tell my younger self that no one can do a better job than yourself. You have so many ways to show up in the world so people can really see who you are. Don’t hide things that you’re suffering from. Talk to people, have a community network to share those experiences, and celebrate all your wins. 

If you’re not in the “bro club,” you’re not open to some of those opportunities. When first-in-line promotions and opportunities come by, they think of the person they last saw. If it’s not you, you’re probably not thought of. But you can also write these things on LinkedIn, share it on your own channels, and maybe when they do come up with those promotions, they can think of your name subconsciously. Someone can Google you and see it’s on your about page. You can just talk about your win, there’s nothing wrong with that. You’re celebrating things that make you unique so you can be included in those conversations as well. I would tell my younger self, you’re your best advocate.

Tania

Yes, and it’s not bragging or having a big ego. It’s simply sharing who you are so others can see you in the light that is intended and celebrate you in the way that you’re meant to be celebrated.

Related Podcasts

Episode 11: Celebrating Community over Competition with Ché Elizaga Castro

Episode 17: Practicing Inclusion on Purpose with Ruchika Tulshyan

Episode 48: Negotiation for Impactful Softies with Nadia De Ala

Connect with Bernice Chao: 

Website: bernicechao.com

LinkedIn: Bernice Chao

Connect with Jesslin Lam:

Website: joyofjessalin.com

LinkedIn: Jessalin Lam

Connect with Tania Bhattacharyya:

LinkedIn: Tania Bhattacharyya